United-Forum APM Anzeige für AR3, KW und TW *2. Update*

[stefros]

Untergrund wie z.b. das ticken des Zeitelementes, das prüfen ob die Maus noch da ist, oder whatever.
Was hier angesagt ist ist, ein Replay machen während dem man 5 Minuten AFK ist, wenn da die APM nicht auf 0 zurück gehen ist das Untergrundrauschen.

 

[atom1c]

Ich hab den längsten :P
Nette Statistik, bei RA3 ist die auch garnicht so uninteressant, da Micro wieder von Nutzen ist.
Zu ZH Zeiten warens noch 250 bis 350, zwar mit Rechtsklicks vorm Scrollen, aber die machen ja auchnicht soviel aus.
TW/KW hat mich "noobifiziert", wie LiangHuBBB das so schön sagen würde.

 

[Wilko]

Es is teilweise konstant, aba nich die ganze Zeit über

Is komisch^^

 

[atom1c]

jetzt gibts keine Statistik mehr, nurnoch "undefined".

 

[Osbes]

Ich denke, dass ich es behoben habe, jedoch müsste man es noch ein paar mal testen.
Bei dem einspielen habe ich den gesamten Cache geleert, falls der Fehler auch andere Replays betrifft, daher lief es gerade nicht, jedoch sollte es jetzt wieder gehen

 

[Wmm]

Sorry to get in here with my English. My German sucks, although I can read the most I can't write it

.
First of all, nice job getting an apm counter. I suppose you reverse engineered the whole format, or did you get help from EA?
I uploaded a replay (here), where I did absolutely nothing. I didn't even touch my keyboard or mouse. The other person said he had graphical problems and that he had to restart. Good for me, since I didn't even had to do anything to get out of the game. Still I have an apm of 16 and the other person 12.
I absolutely did nothing and that other guy only started building a building (Allies powerplant) and clicked somewhere in the field with his left mouse button (apart from chatting to me, but that's not saved in the replay). I can explain why I would get an apm number > 0, but that would be in the 50-60's.
Why I could explain that and why I know exactly what the other person did (without watching the replay)? Because I'm reverse engineering the replay files too

. But anyway, someone is wrong in this matter, and although I might be wrong too, I think an apm of 16 where I didn't even touch my keyboard or mouse is way off

.

 

[Wilko]

Yeah, we are just analysing this problem
We are making some tests at the moment
But i had indeed an apm of 60 when i left the game

 

[Mooff]

Thank you for your feedback, we are working on those "false actions" right now. Yes, we are also reverse engineering the replays and haven't had help from EA.

 

[Wmm]

I see you're getting close to it as the apm goes down and down

. If I'm right I should have 0 actions (since I didn't even touch anything) and the other guy 2 (starting a building and clicking).
Can I ask how far you guys are with reverse engineering? Do you know what most of the commands do, can you for example extract build orders?

 

[Mooff]

Yes, actions-counts should be very low in those replays, but our averaging algorithm isn't optimized for non-action replays. That's why those replays look kinda odd. The system is optimized for 8-20min long games - walking the line between still having reasonable peaks and beeing readable.
As for the commands, we analysed the abstract structure orders have. During that process we found out the meaning of some of those commands (move, force fire, building imperial warriors, or some eggs...). We don't have a list yet for all buildings and nanocores, so right now we can't extract buildorders. But given our knowledge it won't be hard to get such a list.

 

[Wmm]

You know the format, so it's indeed not hard anymore to get such a list. Only time intensive, especially for the general powers (or what are they calt actually in RA3). I hacked the game to give me more points so I could find them all in one short replay

.
APM values for my replay are ok now btw

.

 

[stefros]

Yeah, APM is really close to actual APM now, if you go AFK for 5 Minutes you can see that in the Replay, we removed the underground and got that covered.
The thing about decoding everything is, what would you do with that information? Well, there are some uses for that, but all rather complicated.

 

[Wmm]

There's a lot of uninteresting information, but I want at least buildorders / general points chosen in my Replay Tool, as that is something interesting and may help people.
But I don't think it's possible to decode every single command in the replay file. Yesterday I spend too much time banging my head on one command. I know when it gets in the replay and when not, but I have no clue about what it does :S.
And, I'm afraid the APM from replay files is not the actual APM. When someone clicks the queuetabs in the sidebar to build units / buildings, that clicking isn't saved. If you try to build a building somewhere where it's not possible to build, that "misclick" isn't saved either. And who actually knows what more there isn't saved. That is a pitty imo, EA should include stuff like that so a real comparison can be made with WC3 / SC

.

 

[Mooff]

I think of it the other way around. Ra3 is way closer to sensible APM then those other games are. In Ra3 selecting 20 units and giving a move order are 2 actions, in wc3 (afaik) this would be around 20-40 actions.
It of course also has some downsides not registering non-commands which are still actions, one can't have everything i guess.

 

[stefros]

Well, you also have to consider that we want to keep Replay Files as small as possible, if every little thing was saved and the would be some MB of size the whole replay-system on our forums would be impossible.

 

[Wiebbe]

If we wanted that they should remove the scrolling and audio from replay files as well

I like this feature alot btw! The graph looks very nice!

 

[Wmm]

I think of it the other way around. Ra3 is way closer to sensible APM then those other games are. In Ra3 selecting 20 units and giving a move order are 2 actions, in wc3 (afaik) this would be around 20-40 actions.


It of course also has some downsides not registering non-commands which are still actions, one can't have everything i guess.

I have absolutely no idea how it's done in WC3/SC. But I think the 250 apm for topplayers gets closer to the truth than the ~ 50 pm I saw for xnc / oktron players in a replay here. Not saying 250 might be accurate though, I have no idea

.

 

[Mooff]

Peaks of 250 are realistic, average apm of 250 is not, not even for the best there is. That's apm-spam (or using the words they use "i need to keep my fingers warm").
edit: for example the first minute in a replay, you can give only so many reasonable actions:
- build powerplant
---wait 10sec---
- place powerplant
- build barracks
---wait 10sec---
- place barracks
- build refinery
- waypoint rax (or give move order after the unit is build)
- build dog
- build engi
- capture order for the engi
- waypoint rax
- build peacekeeper
---wait for the ref to finish, wait for dog to move to this waypoint---
- place refinery
..
so we have 12 orders in about 40sec at gamestart => that's 8 APM (let's say you want to avoid pathfinding issues and give more move orders, then let's say 15 APM)
In the replay you will allways see a way higher number cause players waypointspam, give move order numerous times etc., doesn't mean they are doing anything usefull though. Basecially as long as you are not engaged in a fight, you don't have any need to have a high APM count. So an average of 60APM over the replay doesn't seem to be this off for me.

 

[Wmm]

In RA3 a APM of 50 in the first minute is indeed overkill. But in WC3 you have to do way more at the start. Not so much that it requires 250 APM though. WC3 is way more APM intensive than RA3 ever will be. And it does help players to warm up in the beginning. It's not like they spam APM for their epenis, matches are not won by whoever has the highest APM.
The problem in RA3 is that there are so many moments where there's nothing to do, so either you make that up by insane spam or your APM drops hard. In WC3 you're always doing something and even if you drop the spam the APM of topplayers would be > 60, way higher.

 

[Osbes]

APM Support für Kanes Rache​

Ab sofort gibt es die APM Statistik auch für Kanes Rache.

Der Suppport für TW wird jedoch noch einige Zeit in Anspruch nehmen, da dort die Speicherung von Befelen wiederum etwas anders als in KW und RA3 ist.